Consultation with Steve Kuzma

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Category: Case Studies

Simple Square had a great discussion with New Jersey-based visual artist, Steve Kuzma, about improving his online identity with respect to selling more of his paintings and prints, as well as obtaining more design work with commercial clients.

Steve’s background as an illustrator was a great way to “talk shop” with respect to the new landscape of marketing through the internet, and how that landscape continues to evolve.

As a creative professional looking for new and improved methods by which he can leverage the internet to expose his work to a wider, global audience and, therefore, bring in more business, Steve represented the ideal Client for Simple Square’s work.

We look forward to your comments on our simple, but fun discussion with this new friend.

Transcription of Consultation

John: My name is John Furness, I own and operate a web design company called Simple Square and Simple Square specializes in assisting creative professionals to achieve their goals online through award winning design itself and through really like effective best practices that we have designed over the years that help people get their work in front of the people that matter so that they can make the sales and they can continuing to be successful themselves. Simple Square has been around for 12 years, you know we’ve got a really nice and tried and tested method of the way that we build and function as a company. Simple Square, to say it’s an agency is sort of an incorrect term; we are a network of individuals who work virtually, from different places around the world. I have people in the states that work with me and I also have an assistant that works in England as well who lives over in England. Really, it’s a matter of bringing who feel is the best fit for Simple Square so that we can offer like a really superior product for our clients.

Dan: Well I was going to say to some degree that’s even true of the clientele that you chose to work with, you’re not necessarily looking for every single website that comes along to be a good fit because you really want to specialize and you really want to serve the creative professional network, especially those who need to present their wares visually and so forth.

John: That’s exactly it, that’s very true.

Steve: Wow, wow that is really refreshing to hear, you guys are super.

Dan: And who was that, and who was that over there saying that it’s refreshing to hear.

Steve: Right oh god, I’m impressed, that’s a great sales pitch.

John: Well Steve go ahead and introduce yourself so we know who are and again we can help identify basically the kind of client that you represent…

Steve: Okay.

John: And so forth.

Steve: Well I started my career as an illustrator in New York, so I’ve been in New York as an illustrator.

John: Your full name sir?

Steve: Steve Kuzma K-u-z-m-a, I live with my wife and my dad.

John: Okay favorite milkshake flavor?

Steve: Yeah, yeah, no I mean it’s all part of it, so we’re; we’re protecting our little world here. But I lived in New York, I was alone as an illustrator and I worked with the market for 15 years. For me, highly successful time and that gaged differently, some people might say well if you didn’t make tons of money you weren’t successful and for me it was the projects, I worked on every magazine, magazine cover, Inside, Time, The New York Times, I worked with publishing children’s books out, I have one out on Reading Rainbow, I did work for the Olympics, countless illustrations during that time and for the networks, I did movie posters. So anyway, that stance, art directors just don’t pick anybody’s work, they pick work that they like, and they are picking your work regularly in a very competitive market – that says a lot for what an artist reached in their style and in their communicative self. My illustration has had a fine art edge to it, I have always wanted to be a fine artist and a lot of illustrators actually branch off into fine art or the other way around. You know one pace, the illustration page for me would tie into, delve into painting. So I did a tremendous of painting, especially through the 80’s. I went to Parsons School of Design, I graduated and went CNI Italy, attended a program in Paris and my really school started as an illustrator after 82. And then in the 90’s, I left New York; I knew New York was getting to be… the whole market you know this, for illustrators it just took a dive, a really bad time. So anyway, I sense the tension and it was getting very difficult to work with, there was a lot of instability. So during that time I created a lot more healing work, and that’s where I met my wife and moved to the shore area where she was working as a violinist and I connected with Atlantic Care Hospital, he just found my card – the CEO and he’s a really great guy, we’re actually friends now and this man gave me his jobs to do that were, for example, he had two weeks to do a building and the senator of the state was coming in, all these dignitaries, and they didn’t have artwork. So I actually pulled it off with the healing work that I created before that, so that was the start of getting my work printed and then framed and designed for buildings. So, that again is sustaining my work to do painting which is what I really want to do and want to be known for is a painter and I am a good illustrator. I mean how do you show all of that, sometimes people are confused, well he’s a good painter, or he’s done commercial.

Dan: Steve can I interrupt with a couple of clarifying questions.

Steve: Sure

Dan: Well my first question would be are you doing any illustration at this point?

Steve: Right now I am doing a little but I am not connected to the market in New York as all, I don’t have an art director that I am actively working with; that market changes so often, these guys change jobs and you have to really keep up with it. I would rather not do illustration now because I don’t have an operating like full studio. Right now we are living in an apartment and in that apartment I have two printers, professional printers that take up a lot of space, so when I do illustration especially for a big project, I have an entire big space you know. I actually renovated my Mother’s house and had a nice studio in it, but I just left it, I left the whole house, I left everything for them and it wouldn’t be easy to go back and forth and work there so… it’s okay, I mean I’m okay I can work on stuff on a small scale you know but the pressure of… the jobs often they want things you know yesterday and they want it done very well and I’d rather keep that pressure away you know.

Dan: So we’re not attempting…

Steve: I can pull off the job, I can pull off jobs of even what I have, but I guess I… no I can do it, I would welcome illustration but I would rather it come to me and say yes or no, you know.

Dan: But we’re not really attempting, I mean if we at some point built a site for you, we are not attempting to show case that work per say, we’re looking to really segment and highlight and showcase the painting?

Steve: I think so

Dan: So we are calling that the fine art and then in the other world that you are still existing in and enjoying, you call it design work as far as the hospitals or is that like installation where you call it commercial?

Steve: You could say design, designer, illustrator, you could still put in illustrator because illustration is very close to design and you know I don’t know how it looks or how it looks when it’s presented but…

Dan: I know that John referred to it early it today as commercial work as opposed to your fine art.

Steve: Yeah that would be more commercial work, like commercial work on a website would be sports, a sport sections and I have a lot of ones on there and that would probably be maybe a separate thing to really show all the published work and all the parachutes to really get into that asset. But yeah I think if the website just showed the work that I am doing now, a lot of what I do now is connecting like a living space for people, people I find respond how they respond to my work, and I do a lot of outdoor shows and I really see the response from people, these are people who can’t even afford art, but here they are, they are happy to see something that connects to nature you know, connects them to bring something to their home and I am honored when that happens, that gives them something, actually it’s like a miracle to me if somebody could actually want to buy, whether it’s $25 or an $1,000 painting, they actually even considered bringing something into their home that is from an artist, that is an original print, that’s an amazing, even in this economy. There is so many people that want to redo their little space. So I think it’s just a good time and because I have affordable work as a printer, it’s very competitive.

Dan: Well this is you know, this is again one of the things John and I were talking about earlier today and I know from personal experience when I go to street fairs or any kind of outdoor markets and I spend a lot of time just enjoying like you said an artists, or even somebody who selling certain types of clothing or jewelry, I spend a lot of time just enjoying the goods as a window shopper and then there is times I purchase things because I think exactly what you just stated which is well you know I can’t afford the $500 painting right now but I can buy a couple prints and I can have some beautiful things in my home and feel good about what I am putting on the walls is also supporting an artists. So I mean that there’s some sort of money that is generated for you through that effort.

Steve: Yeah and everybody is happy, it’s a direct connection, there is no gallery or anybody in between that and for the outdoor shows for me it’s a lot of follow up, like people going yeah I definitely want that and you know they convince you beyond a doubt and then there gone and then you have to go look up their number, and then yeah I really do want that and then you know, it can be along process, what goes on after that.

Dan: And I was going to say, but the thing is that the initial conversation that you and I had was around the idea that just a little more commercial work would really fund the artwork and the efforts that you enjoy more because they are bigger ticket sales for you and like you said you might not come across another world cup soccer gig but if you did you would knew how to charge appropriately at this point in your career. So it seems, and likewise, I’ve been through that pain in my own way and long story short is that it sounds to me, you tell us if I am wrong, but it sounds to me like focusing on a site and talking about how we could build a site around the commercial work, it would better serve you over all, is that correct?

Steve: Um… I mean I think it could present my fine art but it also could have a design like wow look you could have a hospitals, you can have this in your home, look how you could have the whole thing designed and framed. I want this site to look sophisticated enough as an artist, whether it’s just really looking at the art and then how many it’s applied you know.

Dan: Well I guess the question is do you have a preference which angel we take for the sake of this discussion or would you challenge where to lead us?

Steve: Maybe the commercial one, the application of where the art would be used and sold.

Dan: Okay gotcha

Steve: and that would be good because you know, finding a, I guess that will show the work too, you guys probably have really good design sense.

Dan: Gotcha

John: I agree with that, I think focusing on the commercial is a good place to start with that.

Steve: Yeah

Dan: So let me start by saying that either I see this going with John leading us through the ideas that I know he’s had or Steve if you have specific questions that you want to get answered, we could go that way as well.

Steve: John you could tell me what your thoughts are, I mean I have a lot more work that’s not on there, its just a thrown together site, my photographer just helped to put that together, it’s only a start. So I could supply you with anything you may need, you know. I actually was approached by the Zenfolio to upgrade that site, I totally upgraded with going on with all their tools and making it look, I mentioned a friend of mine has her website but she would do more than that. I mean I have some money, I could get started whether you work on that website or if you have… anyway let me hear your ideas.

Dan: My first thought would be to get you away from Zenfolio and we get you on to your own domain name, primarily from a professional point of view, it takes you away from the idea that you are using something is template and meant for the masses and generic and it takes you more to more of a custom solution which is essentially what you are selling to your clients. So like the builders and the planners of these buildings aren’t hiring somebody that is going to show up and put wall papers on the walls, they are hiring someone that is going to paint something that is extremely unique. And I think it’s extremely important that there is an alignment with the way you are marketing yourself and with the product that you are going to be giving to your clients.

Steve: Okay so maybe more established.

Dan: Definitely and you know you get that more professional sort of feel. When they show up at your site, it’s like hey this guy is really doing well, he’s got his own domain name, he’s got beautiful looking site and it’s really consistent with the product that he is offering and when you have that consistency, it’s really going to help them make that decision between working with you and you know if they are on the fence and they’ve got a couple of you, like you said sometimes these things go to committees and committees are looking at different websites and different pieces of work and decide who they are going to work with, it can make a significant difference for you.

Steve: So okay I totally agree with that, that upgrade.

Dan: Another area that I would consider Steve is bringing a bit of personality into your site through use of, be that social media or a blog, so you are connecting on a regular base with your viewers and your audience and it could be… you know your blog can be things where it’s kind of step by step of the current mural you are working on or thoughts regarding a project that is up and coming or the process that you went through in pitching another project. You are sort of creating a transparency for what you do, so people that come to you do work for them, they are going to hire you to come in and paint something, they are going to know hey this is what Steve’s projects are like, we actually almost know Steve intimately because we read a few of his blog articles, and he’s a really nice guy and we enjoyed how he explained working on this project or that project and we are really looking forward to working with him – it gives them a bit more of an idea of who are you and what it’s going to be like to work with you.

Steve: Cool, I think that’s really, really important and by word of mouth and people know me here that way but I mean if I sent something to anyone they are not going to have a clue of what I’m doing, unless they see that… like I just finished a building last March that actually looked so far better then what we had planned, I mean it went passed anything anyone dreamed, it’s really a good story and actually they gave me a store as a trade for payment for a month, for a year. They really got the better end of the deal, these guys didn’t know, they basically took a building of a block long and they divided it into co-op stores and the place was a gutted mess and I actually had to design that in every tiny aspect of the interior and the exterior, not the architectural but the… every fabric, every carpet, all that color had to work and it wasn’t easy to do and we nailed it, we really did and then I put a 30 ft. mural on the back. These hundred-year-old apartments were just transformed and the whole town is happy about it because it was a dump before and they are all thanking…

Dan: that right there is a wonderful story to share with your audience and right now when they come to your site, they don’t’ know that, they don’t have any idea about that unless you call them.

Steve: Yeah, so there’s that and there’s the five buildings at the landing care where the CEO wrote me this stellar reference letter, we were actually going to meet and have dinner with them and this is a top CEO of a major hospital.

Dan: I was gong to say Atlantic Health is a major hospital group, they are well placed in this area, you know my mother works at a hospital and I believe they just bought out that hospital.

Steve: And they are upgrading yes.

John: You know from a purely sort of technical and searchability perspective as well, if you are looking at from people finding you, people may not your name but they may know the name of where you did the work, and if they go into Google and they say such and such hospital mural, it would be great if you were showing up in those results as opposed to not at all or them not being able to locate you and that kind of stuff can be really helpful.

Steve: Get started, I mean whatever you propose step by step to get started because I’m… as an artist I have enough going on with just dealing with you know… the art I am working with or preparing it or designing it, or setting it up and talking to people. So you are right on, you could actually bring that right in front of people, it can be like a nominal life in a normal economy you know, a real economy.

Dan: One of the things, sorry to interject John, one of the things that I have learned over the last couple of years of working in website, sorry web presence, sales and understanding the transformation of marketing to the internet is that a lot of folks who have not been working in that space, let’s call it, you know let’s use the example, it’s not so much an age bracket anymore in you know underprivileged, they literally call it the digital divide but that digital divide is present between let’s say myself and my parents. Even though I don’t necessarily search the internet that I know a lot of folks in my generation or younger I do, I am at least aware of the fact that there is something called longer key word searchers that are going on more and more and what that means specifically, is that somebody that is even 5 years younger than me is more likely to type in 5 words into the internet and lets say that that person is working for somebody who is trying to buy artwork who is similar to yours, they would enter Atlantic health mural, they might even name the building and so forth and so on and try to find a specific a site by way of the search bar in Google or in the their search engines, and they are more likely to do that than somebody 10 years older than me. So there is a distinct way in which sites are competing for that person’s attention.

Steve: Wow

Dan: If that makes sense.

Steve: Yeah it makes perfectly clear sense. I mean I can, I used to talk like that with art directors and illustrators, it’s nice to be able to talk to you guys in a way like this because… it’s very… it’s almost you know, it needs to be cleared up. By the way before we go, your mother or if you like any artwork, I am happy to send anything, especially printouts. I have my own professional large format printer and my friend who is a photographer have large format printers and that’s why we can handle all kinds of jobs where we are set up. But that thing has made it, like John was saying earlier, wow I can do like, somebody wanted ten paintings to design for a lobby or building, then that’s kind of small really, there is people that do you know entire floors or the whole thing – I mean that can actually pull me out of any kind of problem I have you know, you know what I mean, if the cards are falling apart, you could address that. I mean that wouldn’t happen easily in the old tails, you would have to work your tail off for a month to get like a $2,000 assignment and you would be exhausted after that. So I have all the files, they are all ready, you know I can go into print or print something, that’s like the easiest way I can think of making, well I do have a lot of interesting artwork I wish I could sell and move. That’s the other thing, I have a tremendous amount of quality stuff, artwork that hasn’t gone out even to gallery, so I would love to be able to move that one way or another and turn that into resources which are needed for not only me but everyone around me. So I’m not like, I’m not after money but it’s needed and I’m working for… I’m not you know… but I would, I’m really inspired by this and anything you considered step by step, I’m right there.

Dan: And john what else did you want to bring up that you have floating around your head, I know you said you had a couple of ideas.

John: The transparency was one of the big ones for me with the blogging and with the social media as well, like using Facebook, maybe setting you up with a Facebook page that you can use in tandem with your blog.

Steve: I have one.

John: Do you, that’s great, I mean we can tie the two together, generating that kind of social discussion is really important as well. It’s really you know over the last year, the weight of social discussion with search results has been incredible, like Google has really started to pay a lot of attention to it, so I mean it’s a great thing to take advantage as well and I mean the appearance of the site which we talked a little bit about, really focusing on…

Steve: I mean it’s a first thing right, I mean you would say just get a decent website up there is the first step.

Dan: Probably focusing on the design and the appearance of your site is important and it has it’s level of importance in the sense where it creates a coherency with your work and it creates sort of a, it fills an expectation that the people that are coming to your page have, for what they are paying for your work and for the quality of work you are going to get. Just like it’s silly, but it’s not like that field of dreams movie where if you build it they will come, like you need to bring people to it, you’ve got to find channels and revenue areas where it’s going to bring people into the site and generate that traffic for you – the blog is one great touch point for that, social media is another great, word of mouth is an excellent one. I don’t know what kind of stuff, what kind of agreements you have with the people you work with, but even having your URL on some of the public pieces that you are doing, like the murals and stuff is a great idea to bring people onto your site.

Steve: Oh, yeah, wow, yeah I can do that.

Dan: You know because you are putting your signature in there, so why not put underneath it.

Steve: right, wow, okay this is all important and so um… lets see, I don’t know what you’re schedule is like, another thing is my wife is one of the top violinists, she’s already there. Although, we are happy with our little life here, you know we can work on, I mean she works on major projects, just recording whatever, but we are happy with our life, we don’t want to be drawn out of our lives and Kathryn has a… a violin website you know and she is happy in her band and playing weddings, but she has played for Willie Nelson, Katy Lang, she’s one of the top players you will hear in a way. But she doesn’t want to tour and she doesn’t want to be in an orchestra because you are locked into a certain life, she is kind free the way she is now. The reason why I am mentioning that is that she has a degree in English from Harvard, so she is smart, she can put things together and write them and anything if you are thinking you need, I mean she actually may need some help with her site too, she may reach out to you as well. But anyway, anything you need from me, blog material I can supply, and if something needs to be written I could put it passed her.

Dan: one of the things I wanted to say before was you know since we have the tow of you guys on the phone and we are doing this little recording and something that always intrigues me about the collaboration of two creative minds is basically, how do people create together right, and one of the things… two things that I really like about working with john. One is that he does not ignore business in favor of design and we will just call it artistic merit and he doesn’t ignore artistic merit in favor of business.

Steve: Yeah that’s a tricky…

Dan: Exactly, yes exactly.

Steve: Some people will judge on either, they will judge on either side and if you are strong on both and you’re presented that way then you leave nothing to question and John one thing, my work, one way to understand it a little bit, it’s kind of a mess on the website in the way that artwork is just thrown up there. But for example, there could be artwork of just one region, let’s say it’s the mountains in New York and around that region, the study of that region through hikes and painting on location, may take like 15 years to surface, but that 15 year body of work may have 100 originals that are top museum level quality, that when you look at them they are actually experiential, the way the techniques are layered, it’s actually a very sensitive layering technique of different mediums and it’s… has a very strong effect and it takes a lot of patience and time and it may have a large maybe a group of 10, that are over 10 ft. long, like mural length that result from one body of work from one particular region – so that’s how I work. I will have a few things kind of thrown up there, but there actually a really strong tightly mixed story that is from every region that I’ve traveled to or lived in to be able to distil that essence of that region. So a lot of care goes into you know if it is work from a hospital or from home, I really get into the study of the work itself to bring it to a level to where it’s… very… uh… you know recognizable or you get the feeling across, that’s really my goal, it’s a hard thing to do you know. So you are seeing like a fraction, you see some of the website, there is whole world that’s on there, that really pulls together too, so the editing…

Dan: Something interesting to think a lot about is how to tell the stories of each series and portray sort of the finest pieces from each one within on your site and not lose the depth of work that is there and the experience that you had in coming to where it is and I think that, that can be done through some really well written literature in consistency with maybe showing a bit of that story through the artwork itself, that’s really neat, it would be a lot of fun to try and figure out how to do that.

Steve: I can tell just by the way you’re speaking; you’re the person to work with. A lot of times I cannot really… I just you know… I’m kind of like an old timer kind of artist in the way I approach things but I am in a modern fast paced world and I can keep up with it in a way, like somehow, I can actually pull it together you know on any level… um and it… like for example, what you’re saying to communicate uh… a journal of you know. Kathryn and I did a trip across country, we’re actually going to go next week, we are going to fly this time, but I drove and I went through many of the national parks across the country and I would paint and draw in each one and then I come back to the studio and it would take years but then I have all this beautiful work, it’s still all surfacing. So yeah to convey that process and the quality of that one that is actually printed and embellished and coated print, and getting that, that someone could own something. My prints are art too, they take that time and very affordable like my prints could be a couple hundred dollars, $300 large, 24 by 30 whatever and I don’t see too many people doing that kind of thing because they don’t have the knowledge of printing and embellishing them properly even though they have all these fine art paintings and amazing coatings. So I see that as being where the money is and of course yeah somebody would like to own an original but I find that a harder market to just present alone.

Dan: So that’s example, what would we do and I would love to hear from both from you as far as, let’s just talk about the idea of a fine art site. Let’s say we have two or three series at a time, that are being highlighted, what would be some of your respective ideas about the design of the site itself and then how to actually move some of this artwork into hands that interested and willing to buy, I mean those are the basic mechanics of what we are talking about. This is a creative professional with a wealth of work that we are all recognizing is worth trying to you know, for lack of a better word, commercialize, help Steve continue doing what he is doing, that’s really what you know being in a artist in a commercial world equates to – how do we make it happen via a website or via a web presence that is designed to market the work. Again, I would love to hear from both you because to me, this is the nexus of what we do at Simple Square, is making sure that the artist has the kind of input that they know they are capable of and yet interfacing with the expertise that they are admitting or saying hey listen there is only so much I can do in a day, I need to turn to a professional for this kind of work; how do you guys both see that happening in this particular scenario?

John: one of the things that Steve said when he was describing his series there that I thought would be a really interesting way to do that, would be instead of organizing his work into galleries or into series, it would be to put it together into stories and you could kind of tell a story which would be that exploration of you know (inaudible) and I think it would be like a wonderful thing to do because you give people the ability to purchase a piece of that story and put it into their home. If you tell that story well and you get the right people there, they are going to connect really well with it and want to take a piece of it with them and it’s kind of like…

Steve: You really said it with that, yeah, because it doesn’t make it, I mean some of these things were painted in hurricanes and storms, I mean there are real stories connected with these, I mean yes that’s what people, I get the experience, or I’m getting even the gift sometimes or a opportunity to paint something and convey it and that is, and that’s what they are getting the work. They are seeing that, they can sense it, so the website shouldn’t really distract form that, it should bring that rather than…

John: Yeah it should extenuate the work and it should tell the story to the people that are looking at so that when they see it, they connect with it. It’s not going to be as powerful as you know, they are standing 3 ft. away from the piece in a gallery but you have an advantage that you don’t’ have in the gallery where you can put all that other information that goes with it, right in front of them, so when they are looking at it, you can tell a bit of the story, you can give them an opportunity to share that with other people if they want to through Facebook or social media aspects. You can connect them to other pieces that are similar in a way that you can’t do in a gallery setting unless you are standing right next to them talking to them while they are doing it.

Steve: Oh yeah and you know John in the back of my mind as an artist, all these years it’s like wow how do you convey this and sometimes you can give up on this, well you know showing at Guggenheim that was my dream, not the showing but you want people to kind of get it in some way in front of them. My work, for the crazy times we lived in, if someone were to chronologically go through my work, it tells a very good story of an artist, the effort and the grace, you know the reciprocal result of the painting and sets a positive message. Of course the other thing, but I mean just to get that out there in a way you know, something isn’t presented properly as you know, it’s like you can have a healthy person, if my price is too low, they can look at it and go you’re crazy.

Dan: I’m not buying this you’re too cheap

Steve: I’ve paid 100 times that and I’ve got some pretty crappy things on my wall.

Dan: It’s a great point Steven and you know we were talking a bit earlier, this evening, the opposite effect, which is the folks at again the street fairs or what you have, you know your casual visitor you might call them is basically, attempting to appreciate and attempting to participate in the purchasing in such great work and yet they are just not able to because of their budgetary constraints and yet there are so many options because of the way the internet works and because of what commerce has flourished that we could even make a very well produced video collection of some of the work maybe, to help tell the story and that could be another means that some income is generated through the site, you know some sort of collaboration between you and a video artist. The way video artistry has taken on new life with the digital format, there is all kinds of possibilities like that which come into play.

Steve: I have a guy that would; sorry there is a guy that… he is happy to work with me on that level too, I haven’t even explored that amazing level. This is so inspiring, that I you know, I am ready to start you know…

Dan: Well the contract is on its way over right now.

Steve: I had a career where I made other people look good and had them make a lot of money, but I am still driving a 97 dodge van and I’m happy. I really must say I have nothing to complain about, I feel very grateful, I think it’s just having a tool like this that would give me some release and fulfillment that it’s out there, we’ve cleaned a lot of things up and it would really help… help us here you know and I you know I can… I have a contract right now, I have companies that they send me oh can we publish stuff and they give me a list of stuff to have me go like a goffer to send to them and it’s like, they have these contracts, these are from big companies, that are bogus, they are ridiculous, they either treat you with no dignity or you’re like a salve, that’s another business model that I find doesn’t go into the future and the kind of thinking where people, they are just some business model; they are not ethical first of all. They are making the money, I will get like 1% or 10%, you know 10% would be a good, a small percentage of really of what they are making and you get a little tired. So having some autonomy with my work, presenting it in a way that gives people dignity and also has some class and very good… a good thing to have happen. Because there are people who will want to take advantage of an artist and they don’t understand that I have been around the block and they do, they keep trying it and sometimes I fall into it but I am happy to put some money down to get started, I don’t know if you want to send ideas over.

Dan: We’ve put a proposal together and send you some of our thoughts on key features that we should do with you and where our focus will be and also some other ideas and options for you to choose from too Steve like we lay everything out really clearly before we move forward with stuff, so you know exactly what you are going to be getting and where you are.

John: And why don’t I just say for the sake of this call we have an audience, we will follow up with you on all the business aspects but if you have any closing thoughts on either what you have learned from each other or what have you, we should state those now and we will definitely follow up on some of the mechanisms.

Steve: John you’ve been very clear with just what you have started saying and I’m sure there is a lot of other things you could go into it. I feel I am on the right track and I feel comfortable with you guys, I actually can tell and it’s been difficult for me to find people who really know a little bit about their corner and their field and there is a lot of mediocre to ways to present this and I feel like this actually get to a kind of a site that I have always wanted to put together.

John: That’s great, that’s really nice feedback to hear Steve. I think myself, from this call, it’s been nice to hear a little bit about your process and about the work you are producing and I feel excited to do something for you and to really help you achieve your goals online and then ultimately offline as well.

Steve: Yeah cool.

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